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F1 Discussion
12-07-2013, 01:14 AM
Post: #11
RE: F1 Discussion
I love f1!! But starting to fall out with it over recent races! There is alot of favourtism between the race stewards... Bernie and certain teams! Especially when penalties need handing out. Mercedes run an unautharised tyre test and virtually get away scott free no grid penalties and no fines etc. diresta is accidently running abit light on the scales and is planted right at the back... Both could be seen as giving a race advantage and two completly different out comes...
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12-07-2013, 05:32 PM
Post: #12
RE: F1 Discussion
It's well documented that I don't like the F1 racing, it's predictable, too tactical and 90% of the time just a parade of cars rather than any racecraft.

That doesn't mean I don't have my finger on the pulse of whats happening, it's hard to avoid reading Autosport, pistonheads, Motorsport news, the chequered flag and various social media links almost on a daily basis!

As a Motorsport fan I get frustrated with the hype surrounding it, I know it's money that drives it but I've been to struggling club meetings where 18-25 saxos/midgets/2cvs/golfs have provided more entertainment in 12 laps of Mallory than a whole f1 season, and these are struggling because the f1 fan is generally an armchair fan who is oblivious to other forms of the sport, a football fan tends to watch any football on, but especially their team, I doubt many f1 watchers will seek out coverage of the WEC, BTCC or WTCC all well televised let alone the VAG trophy or caterhams that have races broadcast.

Again, money is the driving force, sponsorship advertising and coverage etc etc

The penalties are hideous, I agree with the above, Pirelli get slagged for shit tyre despite the design brief to 'make it interesting' then get punished for testing a compromise. Mercedes have the same, so F1 banish the young upcoming talent from an opportunity to get spotted or develop in bext weeks young driver test.

It needs to go back to basics, hopefully the 2014 turbo cars will do this, currently the technology in F1 is overshadowed by WEC in almost all aspects and whenever a team develop a innovative solution in F1 it either gets banned in a rule update or the idea published so all 20+ cars on the grid then have a form of it.

It takes the driver skill out of the equation when the cars & teams are under such close regs all designed to make close racing when in fact, it's doin the total opposite!
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12-07-2013, 06:09 PM
Post: #13
RE: F1 Discussion
(12-07-2013 05:32 PM)OllieWestwood Wrote:  It's well documented that I don't like the F1 racing, it's predictable, too tactical and 90% of the time just a parade of cars rather than any racecraft.

That doesn't mean I don't have my finger on the pulse of whats happening, it's hard to avoid reading Autosport, pistonheads, Motorsport news, the chequered flag and various social media links almost on a daily basis!

As a Motorsport fan I get frustrated with the hype surrounding it, I know it's money that drives it but I've been to struggling club meetings where 18-25 saxos/midgets/2cvs/golfs have provided more entertainment in 12 laps of Mallory than a whole f1 season, and these are struggling because the f1 fan is generally an armchair fan who is oblivious to other forms of the sport, a football fan tends to watch any football on, but especially their team, I doubt many f1 watchers will seek out coverage of the WEC, BTCC or WTCC all well televised let alone the VAG trophy or caterhams that have races broadcast.

Again, money is the driving force, sponsorship advertising and coverage etc etc

The penalties are hideous, I agree with the above, Pirelli get slagged for shit tyre despite the design brief to 'make it interesting' then get punished for testing a compromise. Mercedes have the same, so F1 banish the young upcoming talent from an opportunity to get spotted or develop in bext weeks young driver test.

It needs to go back to basics, hopefully the 2014 turbo cars will do this, currently the technology in F1 is overshadowed by WEC in almost all aspects and whenever a team develop a innovative solution in F1 it either gets banned in a rule update or the idea published so all 20+ cars on the grid then have a form of it.

It takes the driver skill out of the equation when the cars & teams are under such close regs all designed to make close racing when in fact, it's doin the total opposite!

Formula 1 lost road relevance at the late 90's. Many cars nowdays dont use KERS, its still a fresh concept on roadcars in BMW's and Audi's. Theres just no relevance to the road with that.

Car design and development now is all about asmuch power out of a small, economical engine. To me, thats not Formula 1. F1 should be the screaming V10's changing gear at 20,000rpm. Aerodynamic dependance, the ground effect dependence has become king and has been since the late 90's.

Pirelli's tyres were made softer so they could entice tyre wear and improve overtaking. its abit of a fallacy really, I mean I believe in tyre conservation; Alain Prost was the greatest driver to do this; he could eek a tyres performance over a long period of time without destroying the life of it. Fernando Alonso can do the same. Drivers like those two are extremely adaptable and can mould themself to any situation.

On the flipside of that, you dont have all out-and-out racing which people idolise Senna with, when infact, that was a complete fallacy too. Very rarely did you ever get an F1 race which was pushing 100%; cars, engines, gearboxes, tyres or turbo's never allowed that in the history of Formula 1; its one of those rose-tinted viewpoints.

The thing with F1 is, they STILL use 13inch rims because they refuse to use 16-18inch which Michelin wanted the team to adopt. This is because of the massive overhaul and suspension design. F1 refuses to change which is its problem, but then the other problem is they just cant enforce rules.

Whether it was Redbulls flexible wings, engine maps, exhaust blowing, flexible floor, holes in the floor, illegal brake ducts; they were never punished yet Sauber had 1mm out on the rear wing and were DSQ immediately.

Its technical rules are also in a rock and a hard place. Sauber, Lotus, Marussia, Williams, Toro Rosso, Force India and Caterham are all close to folding; Williams cant afford to improve the car, Sauber cant pay Hulkenberg and have missed many deadlines with suppliers to the point that they cant develop their car for the rest of the year. Marussia cant afford to not get 10th just like Caterham otherwise they get no money for competing; both teams failed to agree a merger at the start of the season and both of them are close to folding. STR is obsolete as RBR will sign Kimi making STR a £100+ failure for Mateschitz. Vijay Mallya is under corruption investigation after kingfisher airlines went bust; Sahara have a large percentage but they cant afford to run the team. Genii Capital/Gerrard Lopez cant afford Raikkonen for next year, they have no title sponsor and are close to folding too.

So when you look at that, how can you drastically change rules without losing teams? The new engines next year will cost;

Ferrari turbo; £14million per team per year
Mercedes turbo; £16million per year per team
Renault Turbo; £19million per year per team

Current regulation engines are just £4million per year per team! To change rules costs so much money, to compete costs so much money. Its always been about money in F1, but now its more pivitol than ever. Since banning tobacco (Mild Seven Renault, JPS Lotus, Marlboro Scuderia and Marlboro Mclaren), big money has gone. Alcohol is practically banned as well. They were two of THE biggest sponsorship areas in the past 30 years.

Restrictive rules are there so that costs dont spiral out of control, but if you think RBR has a budget more than any team at £240million, plus £100 million for STR plus they are using their aerolab subsidary off the books to develop the car, theyre spenting half a billion a year on F1. Caterham have £40million. Thats it.

F1 will kill itself eventually, and to be blunt, theres bugger all motorsports out there which will take up its mantle;

WTCC; Terrible.
DTM; Terrible
BTCC; Doesnt have any recognition outside the UK
Indycar; laughed at outside the US
Nascar; same as indycar
WRC; an utter joke without the legend that is Loeb
Moto GP; criticised for playstation bikes; processional
WSB; purer racing but not as marketable
Le Mans; Brilliant design and philosophies but its too long for an average person to sit and watch; endurance racing isn't as attention grabbing as sprint races ala F1, its also not as openly available nor as globally appealing.

This is the whole problem. Costs have spiralled in Le Mans with Toyota all but pulling out due to not having funds for repair parts. Peugeot left aswell. Its just a one horse race. GT categories are fun but again they dont appeal to global audiences.

F1 is just too expensive. £25 for a weekend at BTCC and you get 3 races, up close with the drivers and they are entertaining to watch. Even with stupid civic turbo advantages. You can take a family of 4 for £50. F1? You cant do that for under £1000 if you want grandstand seats!
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12-07-2013, 06:26 PM
Post: #14
RE: F1 Discussion
WRC - still the best way to tell the best driver. Shite TV coverage has killed it, unless you actively seek results or look on the sites I mentioned earlier your likely to not know who or what is winning anything. Red bulls promised coverage has failed to live up to expectation.

WTCC - has the backing of a few manufacturers and holds World championship status, expect that to boom next year as Loeb and Citroen will undoubtably win it.

BTCC - it's the most popular UK series, but agreed, global coverage is poor despite the actual racing lending itself to great TV.

Indycar - very few outside America care

NASCAR - mega money series, most drivers earn more than F1 drivers but outside of US folk find it boring. (I love it!). Good coverage though.

DTM - huge money spinner or Audi, BMW & Mercedes despite the ara being identical bar a sillouette bodyshell. Average racing, poor coverage

British GT - massive this year, why are folk not watching it? Pin up bedroom wall poster cars, good racing, average TV coverage full weekend race packages etc took over from GT3/1 but without the pull of a world or European title

Blancpain - see above, endurance GT racing at its best. Most events on TV.

The whole feeder system to F1 is bolloxed too, where are the stepping stones to get to F1 from karting? Formula ford (BTCC package) Formula 3? (Me and coop watched this last year, shite racing about 7 cars in it, too expensive. Renault 3.5, gone.

Where are the drivers going for aero experience? LMP2, and they are standing there in the WEC!

Support for F1, Porsche supercup, boring. Expensive.


If I could watch one Motorsport only, what would it be....?

Aussie V8s

They have it right.
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12-07-2013, 07:01 PM
Post: #15
RE: F1 Discussion
My problem with WRC is how terrible the field of talent is. I mean, Ogier is great, but when loeb did his semi-retirement rallies, he dominated ogier while ogier dominated the rest of the field.

So in that respect, WRC's talent pool is just horrendous. One for me is Robert Kubica though! He is flying in WRC2 after that horrid accident.

GP2 and GP3 feeder series for Formula 1 are great to watch. Im glad Sky Sports F1 had the rights to them, often its more interesting than the F1 racing. Only problem is, GP2 go full retard on the last few laps.

The problem is, what sort of motor racing can you create? I cant wait for next year in BTCC; KIA have been lobbying serious interest in fielding two factory cars, im seriously hoping they field two Kia pro_ceed GT's. Imagine these in BTCC;

[Image: geneva-2013-kia-proceed-gt-and-ceed-gt-v...otos_1.png]

Did you ever see the Kia Optima's in the SX Pirelli World Challenge? I found them on youtubes and in their first season they took two wins and 2 further podiums which is great to say KIA have never done motor racing;

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I do have a soft spot for KIA though. Love them. Pop quiz! Their diesel engines are rebadged mercedes units Icon_cheesygrin
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13-07-2013, 12:22 AM
Post: #16
RE: F1 Discussion
But if you were Kia, why would you run BTCC where MG and Hinda are the only competitors as a manufacturer and neither are run by the manufacturers, when you could take a stab at a world championship and run in all your target countries in the WTCC? Sure the racing ain't as good but for a upcoming Asian manufacturer, racing all over Europe and Asia with global tv coverage on Eurosport or motors vs a trip to croft, or knockhill with itv 4 coverage?

As a manufacturer surely it's a no brainier?

Don't get me wrong I want more manufacturers in the BTCC like the super touring era, but as a marketing exercise which lets be honest that's all motorsport is for a manufacturer at that level as neither BTCC NGTC or the current world touring spec allow much innovation or development towards road car technology, you have to gonfornthe bigger audience and geographical racing?
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13-07-2013, 09:57 AM
Post: #17
RE: F1 Discussion
(13-07-2013 12:22 AM)OllieWestwood Wrote:  But if you were Kia, why would you run BTCC where MG and Hinda are the only competitors as a manufacturer and neither are run by the manufacturers, when you could take a stab at a world championship and run in all your target countries in the WTCC? Sure the racing ain't as good but for a upcoming Asian manufacturer, racing all over Europe and Asia with global tv coverage on Eurosport or motors vs a trip to croft, or knockhill with itv 4 coverage?

As a manufacturer surely it's a no brainier?

Don't get me wrong I want more manufacturers in the BTCC like the super touring era, but as a marketing exercise which lets be honest that's all motorsport is for a manufacturer at that level as neither BTCC NGTC or the current world touring spec allow much innovation or development towards road car technology, you have to gonfornthe bigger audience and geographical racing?

If I was KIA I would! The reason being that, Yuasa/Dynamics are the manufacturer team with manufacturer backing, Triple 8 MG is the manufacturer backed team aswell. KIA can manufacturer-back a privateer company and be right at the top. That could lead into a WTCC entry if they want,but BTCC is cheaper and they could make the Ceed into a top challenger then set up a WTCC programme, which is much, much more expensive than BTCC. The other plus side, is that KIA is becoming a better known franchise in the UK. They do the USA Pirelli challenge, they do Korean/Asian motorsports, breaking into europe via BTCC could be the first step; No point shelling out much more money to fly all over europe and fail, when you can localise to a very similar category which is still renouned among tin tops in europe.

I dont really see motorsport as having much road relevance anymore. the idea of pushing a car to the limit, designing superior power, speed, handling through the chassis etc conflicts with what manufacturers now push for tiny eco engines.

Imagine if say Honda or MG or KIA, did their Civic Type R/MG6/Pro_CEED in BTCC performance editions in the uk; id have an MG6 if it was akin to a type R! With BTCC KIA is getting into a relatively cheap motorsport with a very large local fanbase.
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14-07-2013, 11:04 AM
Post: #18
RE: F1 Discussion
Anyway, back to F1 Icon_wink

I started watching in the 90s and It was probably because it was available to watch live on tele. Murray Walker also made it entertaining. I always followed the british drivers rather than the teams and i still do.

To me F1 isn't intense wheel to wheel, bumper to bumper racing (or wing to wing Icon_wink) with lots of overtaking. It's always been more of a strategy battle between teams so a lot of the 'racing' is done off the track. That's probably what puts people off. Most people when they watch or think of Motorsport think of actual racing and that's probably the way it should be but its f1 and we all know its a weird sport.

After the turbo era the regulations were fairly static with some updates to improve safety and reduce costs. The teams were therefore evolving and perfecting their cars every season. The racing then became a bit stagnant and led to more of a precession around the track. Then there have been various legislation updates to try and 'improve the show' such as banning of aerodynamic devices (and various updates to this to ban diffusers and exhaust blowing etc), banning of tc, kers, drs, tyres etc. whilst there is now more overtaking its largely artificial. The tyres have made the most difference however maybe they are going too far now and influencing the results too much.

Having said all of this i still follow and enjoy following F1. I like getting involved in the 'F1 weekend', from the press conferences Thursday night through to the race. I like the fact that Sky makes this all easily available on their F1 channel. I should probably watch other forms of Motorsport but in all truth I've been watching it so long that its 'my sport' now. I enjoy watching it more than football.
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16-07-2013, 08:55 PM
Post: #19
RE: F1 Discussion
So,

What's this weeks test going to throw up? Any interesting developments?

More importantly, is anyone going?
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16-07-2013, 10:05 PM
Post: #20
RE: F1 Discussion
(16-07-2013 08:55 PM)OllieWestwood Wrote:  So,

What's this weeks test going to throw up? Any interesting developments?

More importantly, is anyone going?

I was tempted to go for the friday as thats the only day with the new pirelli tyres, but Alonso isn't driving so im going to take an optional shift at work instead. Spose to be decent weather, but its just a single day. They aint gonna learn that much in honesty.

And Pirelli will give mercedes all the tyre data from the test like every other team; so they havnt had a single penalty for cheating in effect.
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